Combat - Click Click Boom

[Stowaway]

The combat is where the game strongly diverts from the formula of a typical MMO. It's still a numbers game and not exactly what I'd call twitch, but the cuticle must be on the mob and players must click while the cuticle is on the mob in order to attack. It's slow paced enough, though, that it doesn't take all that much skill to manage it and it's an entertaining method of combat, a nice break from the typical combat found in this genre.

Sort've sounds like SWG after the NGE, point, click. Damage = result of numbers and weapon used. I don't want to pee all over it without having tried it for myself of course, but isn't that basically what all MMOs do except your clicking mouse button with a crosshair as opposed to targeting and pushing commence attack / special attack button? But then it says "game strongly diverts from the formula", but I don't really see how it's doing that? Do you?

Personally the above is not what I want to be hearing about the combat in this game. I was hoping for more. I feel like i'm going to see what I commented on in another thread, combat that might have been revolutionary years ago but is now being done by all and will be provided for faster, more frantic and skill based, in other games.

But that's just my opinion. What's yours?

Because I know not all people wanted a frantic or skill based FPS combat, infact some dreaded it. I myself didn't really want FE to be akin to a FPS shooter but I really started to think, when it comes to combat, what's the harm. It's more interesting then targeting and special moves, it puts the player (and their personal SKILL) in full control and gets rid of all that pvp character build and number crunching nonsense. Personally i'm not a major pvp combat fan anyway, I usually avoid it in MMORPGs because it's so bland and boring, but I really thought Fallen Earth would be more interesting and maybe i'd get into it this time (I enjoy FPS combat)

As long as the rest of the game is there, the crafting etc, then it's not just counterstrike (as the haters compare to :p). But the stuff that is, is exciting and rewarding. Those who believe RPG combat should be RPG combat will maybe think, well go play counterstrike or battlefield for that. But why shouldn't a game include and take advantage of what is such an exciting mode of combat.

But as said and always goes without saying, all our opinions are subject to change after we try it for ourselves, but based on the above, what are you feeling about it.

Gnar. Discuss.

[Locke]

If that is how the game turns out, PVP will be ****ty. I'll just have to wait and see.

[KnightTemplar]

Just a quick question: Where is that quote from?

But on the topic.

I cant picture the combat in Fallen Earth. I just can't. There's a just the blue screen of death. What would be a similar game for FE combat system? Planet Side? Counter-Strike?

A mix between World of Warcraft and Counter-Striker?

Esshhh, I'm really confused over this part of the game... :confused:

[Stowaway]

http://www.mpogd.com/news/?ID=2505

[KnightTemplar]

http://www.mpogd.com/news/?ID=2505

Ah, thanks. Great tiny-tiny review.

[grayclay88]

I dont think its worth debating until we know, in the flesh, how it will work.

[Stowaway]

I dont think its worth debating until we know, in the flesh, how it will work.

But as said and always goes without saying, all our opinions are subject to change after we try it for ourselves, but based on the above, what are you feeling about it.

It's just for speculating and sharing opinion on what we've heard so far about it.

Plus there's been quite a bit of info on top of the stuff quoted, about the dodge/evade stat and how it relates to damage done, damage cap and that weapons effects damage. What having a high rifle stat means. So on.

I mean are you hoping for it to be more FPS or RPG?

[KnightTemplar]

It's just for speculating and sharing opinion on what we've heard so far about it.

Plus there's been quite a bit of info on top of the stuff quoted, about the dodge/evade stat and how it relates to damage done, damage cap and that weapons effects damage. What having a high rifle stat means. So on.

I mean are you hoping for it to be more FPS or RPG?

fifty - fifty? :D

You know, "bang bang bang I shoot you" and the multiple choices for dialogues, quests, factions.

[Stowaway]

Yeh, that's how I feel, don't see why the FPS element cant exist with combat and be skill based and the RPG and stat stuff exists outside combat. Or at least outside PVP.

It's just that this latest little 'preview' seems to point to it being the slowish-paced fake FPS and RPG stat hybrid which I hate. I really hope i'm proved wrong when we get our hands on it.

[GRiM]

Sort've sounds like SWG after the NGE, point, click. Damage = result of numbers and weapon used.


I really hate that. It takes no skill to PVP, well not true skill... That takes the kind of skill where time is the major factor. The longer you play the better you are. But thats not real skill, thats just how many hours you put into the game. AND ALSO, TARGETIING SUCKS! When you lock on, your not really aiming at them. But thats why this is a FPS MMO though. Also, I hope we can shoot our guns, and do weapon attacks whenever we want, at nothing.

[Webber]

They have always said this is an MMORPG, with some twitch elements. (IIRC)

I like Counterstrike.

I like RPGs.

I think I may like this combat system.

[grayclay88]

Lol Stow, you pretty much summed up what i said in another post with

Yeh, that's how I feel, don't see why the FPS element cant exist with combat and be skill based and the RPG and stat stuff exists outside combat. Or at least outside PVP.

cant be bothered to link right now, but its there somewhere. Myself, i would prefer an 80% FPS with 20% RPG, as for what you need in combat, and for the wrest of the game, 60% FPS and 40% RPG,

[DarkTreader]

I really hate that. It takes no skill to PVP, well not true skill... That takes the kind of skill where time is the major factor. The longer you play the better you are. But thats not real skill, thats just how many hours you put into the game. AND ALSO, TARGETIING SUCKS! When you lock on, your not really aiming at them. But thats why this is a FPS MMO though. Also, I hope we can shoot our guns, and do weapon attacks whenever we want, at nothing.

Why do you say that takes no skill? I think it would take more skill to PvP that way than to tab-lock onto someone and spam your hotkeys until death.

[medic238]

Firstly, I love that the dude referred to it as a cuticle instead of a reticle. I thought for a moment we'd switched from first person shooter to first person manicures...

Stow, I can see where you're coming from with your concerns. It certainly seems a little like a junior version of FPS. But I really don't see how they can consider all of the stats; weapon use, armor use, dodge, evade, group tactics,etc. and make the game feel more FPS and less NGE.

Other FPS games are based upon 2 things: the skill of the player behind the mouse and the damage type of the weapon he/she is using.

If we're wanting character skills to mean something ingame, then there must be some form of number crunching going on behind the scenes.

[pothos]

I've been lurking these, and Tabula Rasa boards, looking for a non-fantasy mmo, and I felt compelled to chime in on this. One of the things that bothers me about computer rpgs is the prevelant use of 'dice', which i think is a hold over from table-top games. You roll for the swing, you roll for the effects, you roll for the damage, and you check it against the remaining hitpoints. This is a fun method for pencil and paper gaming, but I think it underutilizes PC's to devote them to rolling dice a few hundred times every second. Rpg's are a simulation of human interaction and small squad combat, and as such, a computer program should be able to put the dice away and represent the action as a series of partial differential equations instead. In other words, make the rpg a real simulation, where the player inputs the initial or boundary conditions, (such as aiming, moving his character, pulling the trigger), and the computer decides what hits what, where, and for how much damage. The difference between characters would no longer be Constitution, Inteligence, Save vs. this, resistence to that, etc. but Bodymass, Lower and Upper body Strength, Reflexes, Chest armor, Weapon weight, and they would have a direct impact on how the character moves, aims a weapon, swings a knife, etc.

For example, remember the game 'Deus Ex'? The first one? It was a single-player rpg, using a fps engine. You could use a sniper rifle as soon as you found one in the game, but until you gave your character the proper skills, when using the scope, the target would wander a lot, making hitting anything difficult. You could also use heavy weapons, but without strength and heavy weapons skill, your movement would be slow, and panning to a target would take forever. Thus, you would use your experience points to customize your character's physical characteristics and skills to match your desired play style. Concidentally, it was a blast to play.

I understand it would be a big leap for any MMORPG developer to completely throw out the dice, and having enough character design options to allow full customization without imbalancing the game could be really tough, but I'd really be interested in checking out a game that tried this.

[Bronski]

I really hope it doesn't turn out to be a pseudo-fps like they turned SWG into.

If it was done like Deus-Ex then I'd be quite happy. I've always enjoyed that game.

In my opinion it needs to be an FPS system modified with RPG elements. Not the other way around. SWG did it the other way around and was not fun.

In the end we'll just have to wait and see how its done. No matter the way they do it as long as its done well then i'm sure I will be able to enjoy the game.

[Dominic Hale]

I agree with Pothos and Stow on this one.. I don't want to be a naysayer when we have had zero information with Icarus as to how this will work, but if the game is just a neocron hybrid of some sort, I won't be around too long. I'm looking for something unique, not another 80 percent stats competition like every other MMO in the market.

[Dominic Hale]

The problem is Neocron LOOKS like an FPS at first glance, but is actually not, other than the perspective. If I fire off my gatling cannon in a blind rage spray across the screen, it won't damage another player even if I see the bullet hit him, because I had to have my cursor lock onto him enough for my skill check to pass first. :/

While both stats, skill, and what "build" you have all have a place in combat in an MMO, skill should be the bread and butter, not the edge you use to compliment your stats. Stats and how you build your character take an equal or lesser part in how you perform. (in an ideal MMO imho)

[Kage]

I think they could find some middle ground if they made combat more of a timing twitch with rpg stats behind it. Target with a point and click or even a tab but when you fire is the important part, taking into acount position and cover. also allow defensive skills to be twitch based; duck, roll, etc. That way its not just lock on each other and spam til someone dies. still comes down to number crunching dice rolls but the twitch effects which numbers get "rolled". Clean shot from high ground gets a bonus but the other guy was doing a tactical roll so he also gets a defensive bonus. Stats matter but only if you use the correct skill at the correct time. Use the right weapon depending on range, use the right defensive move against certain attacks, no sniper pistols or rolling to avoid a basball bat.
They will keep the rpg'ers happy if they don't turn it totally into Battlefield FE and keep the FPS'ers happy if you put in some sort of reaction based skill. I think its agreed that no1 wants another "spam my I win button game"

Recoil, breathe control, wind, cheekweld, and all the other factors that go into actually shooting a weapon don't have to be included. It doesn't need to be realistic at all, hell actually hitting a moving target in combat is 90% luck and 10% skill anyway. They just need to make it fun and fluid.

[shabadabadizzle]

hello all, first post here (though i've been skimming these forums for a few weeks now) and it seems that a lot of debate has come up on this thread and others about the FPS vs RPG aspect of FE. invariably, the word skill comes up often, "such and such takes no skill," ect.. so i figured i'd help a few of you out.

from www.dictionary.com (not exactly Websters but it'll suit this purpose).

skill /skɪl/ –noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete. understanding; discernment.
5. Obsolete. reason; cause.
[Origin: 1125–75; ME < ON skil distinction, difference; c. D geschil difference, quarrel. See skill2]

so it would appear that whether the skill is pressing buttons in a certain sequence or aiming the crosshairs or a virtual gun with your mouse, both FPS and MMORPG style PVP involved a certain amount of "skill." personally, i've played several MMORPGS and also roll through battlefield and other FPS games from time to time. i'm willing to give the devs there chance to win me over but my two cents would be 70% RPG and 30% FPS (with the 30% coming mostly in combat). oh, and 1 hitbox please (i don't want my finger to curl up too much).:D

[Mookie]

Sounds like maybe all my hours of playing Battlefield 2 will aid me here :D


But I do think we will have to wait and see how it feels in the beta before we condem anything.

[grayclay88]

Mookie, where did you get your name from?

[Stowaway]

Spike Lee joint - Do The Right Thing , perhaps.

[Blackmoor]

NGE is not FPS in any way shape or form. It is just the usual MMO turn based combat tweaked to give something like the illusion of FPS.

As to ways to add rpg elements into FPS

Cone of fire - higher skill = smaller cone of fire
Armor penetration
Critical damage
Rate of fire
Dodge/avoidance - just a check to see if you actually hit what you were firing at rather than leaving it pure twitch.

Yes they take away from the pure twitch aspect but they also give added depth to the character. A good twitch player should still be much better than a mediocre twitch player just for the fact that he will have his ret on the other player more and be out of the other players ret more.

The slow combat may also be if they were still showing the characters using zip guns like int he MOGArmy vid. Also the fact that i think they will be stressing "Slay em. don't spray em" and the fact that you probably won't have near unlimited amounts of ammo to go trigger happy with.

I will be happy if its around 40% character skills,40% player skills, 10-15% equipment , and 5-10% enviroment for outcome of an attack.

[spear2]

Well, first of all, let me state that I'm firmly in the 'let's wait til we see the game in front of us" camp before I say anything else.

But let's make some comparisons here.... in a full FPS game, there is no 'character building", no skill points to assign. You grab a gun, you grab armor, you shoot, plain and simple. Everything rests on the skill and knowledge of the player.

In a full RPG, it's all about character building. Get those skills, get that new equipment, build your character better. But when the fight starts, at least in the good games, there's still player skill involved. You have to choose the right special attacks, the right spells(or equivalent) in order to win the battle. It's just a different set of skills.

So, if combat in FE becomes full FPS, only FPS players will play, because most traditional RPG players will be unable to win in combat.

So, we'll see how this hybrid they're coming up with works. I would love to see the system skill-based enough for any RPG player to be able to succeed in PvM combat, but enough FPS where a good FPS player will truly have an advantage in PvP combat, given equivilant characters.

[cow1787]

A pistol only shoots one bullet at a time though. So if you want to hit something, you've got to be aimed at whatever you want to hit.

[sinoth]

I'm pretty worried about this issue... the first thing I thought when watching the GDC MOG video was, "Holy crap this reminds me of Neocron."

My question is, how does this aiming system differ from Neocron, if at all? From what we've heard so far, it will not be full twitch, just mostly twitch, meaning you just have to have a target in the reticle to fire at them. This is exactly how Neocron operates, and is IMHO fairly broken. While different from traditional targeting, it is still a very long ways away from bullet physics and true twitch aiming. As Tor mentioned, with this style of aiming you can't "spray and pray" and hope to hit anything. Hopefully we'll get this issue clarified soon.

[Frater Nicht]

PVP.... Bring it on... People act like PVP is mindless. There is a lot of strategy involved and you have to align yourself with people based on how they like you instead of being based on outer influence. If you make a lot of friends and stick together, it is still RPG in general, there's no way around that, being a MOG. If there are gonna be purist RPG'ers out there collecting things to build, then the PVP'ers are gonna be there to protect you on quests, and stand guard for you when you build stuff.

[GRiM]

Why do you say that takes no skill? I think it would take more skill to PvP that way than to tab-lock onto someone and spam your hotkeys until death.

Thats what i mean, it takes no skill to tab-lock onto someone and just press 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 3.

[Matic]

sorry for bumping this old thread but I didnt want to make a new thread.

I'm confused are we going to have to aim and lead our targets?

[Killian]

If that's the way the game goes, it will lose everything to me.

Only if the terrain, light/day, mutations and such provide a really interesting set of possibilities to utilize in pvp will it still hold water imo. But having both would be my cup of tea with no piss in it.

[Dominic Hale]

Darktreader got to be right there with Lee playing the game, and he said that it's not crappy. That it's actually an FPS, so my fears were washed away.

[Killian]

Darktreader got to be right there with Lee playing the game, and he said that it's not crappy. That it's actually an FPS, so my fears were washed away.

ok nice.


Guess I'll go back to beta then <sigh>

[Craft Enzo]

wait? Beta! where?!

[Kayne]

Lets just hope for the best.

[suske]

it sounds to me like counter strike but slowed down some to allow those without
the reflexes of a cobra to play.
also they have talked hitboxes so yeah a true fps in most aspects.

i never compare any game to the nge. that is a curse. kinda like referring to a new cruise liner as the titannic 2. remember that soe screwed up by trying to
drop a fps overlay onto a turn-based engine.

games like counter strike do offer a lot of run-and-gun fun but become boring
quick. marrying that excitement to a deep and challenging rpg enviroment is the current "holy grail" of mmo development...hopefully icarus can find the balance point between depth and speed.

[Mallatic]

I just wished they had either went one way or the other either FPS or RPG style not a mix of both, this has been attempted once or twice with poor results in other games.

[grayclay88]

I just wished they had either went one way or the other either FPS or RPG style not a mix of both, this has been attempted once or twice with poor results in other games.

So just because those games failed means that every other game with this style will fail?

[flora]

So just because those games failed means that every other game with this style will fail?Not that I necessarily agree, but it's sure been used as the basis for a lot of arguments on here ;)

[DarkTreader]

From what I recall seeing, combat in FE seems to run something similar to fighting in 3rd-person in Morrowind (I'd say Oblivion, but that's just too point-click-win for my tastes). Yes, it takes some coordination, and yes, there is some skill required. Lee tended to use a very effective tactic while fighting: charge the enemy, slash once or twice, then back off and let their attack pass. Now, because of this, I only saw limited ranged weapon usage, but that seemed to be where most of the FPS action centered.

Honestly, for a good long while in the game, I get the feeling that it's going to be a lot of melee combat -- bullets and guns are going to be rare.

[Gerion Bellthor]

The idea of of the SGW NGE system is ok (but hmm ... soe is crap), i dont know how you will involve skills like evade. Evade wont make sense to skill if you have to evade with your keyboard. Just if they implement that evade will make you faster when running around like a chicken.

So i really hope they focus on the mmorpg part , a bit of a 3rd person shooter is ok, its better than just ... target, hammer all keys , target, hammer all keys ..... and so on, like wow or something.

[grayclay88]

The idea of of the SGW NGE system is ok (but hmm ... soe is crap), i dont know how you will involve skills like evade. Evade wont make sense to skill if you have to evade with your keyboard. Just if they implement that evade will make you faster when running around like a chicken.

So i really hope they focus on the mmorpg part , a bit of a 3rd person shooter is ok, its better than just ... target, hammer all keys , target, hammer all keys ..... and so on, like wow or something.

They had too skills - dodge and evade - that let you dodge melee and bullet attacks. Its just a chance-to-miss, really, because even though your playing an FPS/TPS, there is still the dice rolls and the RP element going on in the background.

[Uben Qui]

The idea of of the SGW NGE system is ok (but hmm ... soe is crap), i dont know how you will involve skills like evade. Evade wont make sense to skill if you have to evade with your keyboard. Just if they implement that evade will make you faster when running around like a chicken.

So i really hope they focus on the mmorpg part , a bit of a 3rd person shooter is ok, its better than just ... target, hammer all keys , target, hammer all keys ..... and so on, like wow or something.

It has been mentioned that Evade and Dodge will not make you get hit less, it just lessens the damage you take. Lee has said in one of the Mog videos that if you are in range, you basically hit anything you put your reticle on.

[Dominic Hale]

Aye, different skills for damage reduction that will probably be more accessible to different factions.

[Killian]

Thats pretty dumb...Isnt the whole point of dodging to completely dodge the damage taken all together?

not if it's not. It's just a name.


There is probably more relevance to the name when it comes to the abilities it grants, but not necessarily dodging something completely.

[flora]

Dodging can also mean moving enough that it hits a non vital area and thereby causes less damage. You can, and often should dodge a blow so it doesn't hit you in the face, but instead in your arm or something like that. Dictionary ftw.

[Killian]

Look in the dictionary. Im pretty sure dodging has somthing to do with the projectile missing you...

And I bet it doesn't really matter if that's not how they want to do it.

[Matic]

man im still confused ... is it FPS based or what?

in other words will i have to aim and lead in order to hit enemies that are on the run?

is dodging a dice roll or will my movement be enough?

will cover actually mean something besides a line of sight restriction?

[Killian]

man im still confused ... is it FPS based or what?

in other words will i have to aim and lead in order to hit enemies that are on the run?

is dodging a dice roll or will my movement be enough?

will cover actually mean something besides a line of sight restriction?

no you don't lead, yes it's entirely your ability to aim, dodge doesn't make you miss, there is no dice roll, cover prevents you being hit.

Skills give you abilities and effect the amount of damage done, everything else is FPS.

[Dominic Hale]

But why shouldnt dodge make the bullet miss me every so often? Give me a reason why?

Because Lee said it won't, that's why.

[Makiaveli]

Because Lee said it won't, that's why.

Also because part of the game is if you hit then you hit. If I hit then you make me miss then I didn't hit did I? And Lee said if I hit then I hit so there :P

[Stedfast]

Also because part of the game is if you hit then you hit. If I hit then you make me miss then I didn't hit did I? And Lee said if I hit then I hit so there :P

Well I guess that ends this thread :D

[Stowaway]

This thread was ended a long time ago but good on the new boy for doing a search I say. *Gives medal*

Anyone who looks at this thread now, know it's an old thread with old views based on old info.

See the questions of the week threads and interviews/previews for up to date points of view on the FE combat system.

[grayclay88]

Extreme Thread Makeover!

[Mikeyfe]

INSERT BUNNY HOPPING AND DOLPHIN DIVING oh what fun! That is what you see in most FPS. People hopping up and down guns blazing.

[Dominic Hale]

I will say in battlefield 2 it got so unrealistic. In 2142 they lagged it down enough to where you can't do it rapidly, just dive to the floor firing without getting up.

[Matic]

INSERT BUNNY HOPPING AND DOLPHIN DIVING oh what fun! That is what you see in most FPS. People hopping up and down guns blazing.

theres a bunch of ways to stop this, for example planetside adds a drain on your stamina when you jump also your shots become very erratic.

could do that or my idea is if you are shot while jumping you are insta killed. Just for roleplay aspect say "you're body was not ready for the impact and thus you recieved double the damage".

but i agree Bunny hopping is very annoying.

[DeepOne]

In most other games you select an enemy once and then press the attack button and never miss because of your skill - you probably only do so based on calculations.
In FE you have to keep aiming to keep hitting - so it does require some skill, at least if the enemy is small or/and moving (fast).
There is still no real "accuracy" of weapons - only damage is reduced on "wrong" distance - but hey, it's still no click-and-wait game.

Neocron has a similar aiming system - you "lock" on target on-crosshair-over and your crosshair/reticle gets smaller the longer you stay on-target. Accuracy of your shot depends on current reticle size - if you just "position your crosshair over your enemy" and pull the trigger immedeately, you won't hit anything. If you lose the lock - can't keep up with target tracking - then the reticle is reset.

So I mean, ok, it's no click-and-wait - but it's still almost a degradation compared to Neocron - because you don't have "accuracy". You still have damage reduction - but it means you're still able to damage someone from an imbossible distance? Hm...

theres a bunch of ways to stop this, for example planetside adds a drain on your stamina when you jump also your shots become very erratic.
Neocron again, same here: 1) Drains lots of stamina 2) Losing accuracy 3) Gives no advantage for defense 4) your legs will probably be damaged more and that WILL prevent you from hoping :) so in NC there is also no hopping

[Dominic Hale]

Just put in a cooldown before the next time you can jump, instant solution.

[Keld]

Ok I am a noob to FPS games any suggestion I might try out to get some sense of a decent one since I have some time on my hands atm? I know of Plantside but that is really all.

[grayclay88]

Ok I am a noob to FPS games any suggestion I might try out to get some sense of a decent one since I have some time on my hands atm? I know of Plantside but that is really all.

Just get steam.
www.steampowered.com

Day of Defeat Source is the one i play. I would also suggest Bioshock and Stalker.

[Monty]

I just wished they had either went one way or the other either FPS or RPG style not a mix of both, this has been attempted once or twice with poor results in other games.

Ever played Deus Ex???
This game is perfect combination of FPS and RPG and the possibilities of play style are huge. So you are wrong.

[Azarith]

INSERT BUNNY HOPPING AND DOLPHIN DIVING oh what fun! That is what you see in most FPS. People hopping up and down guns blazing.

You forgot the weave. Anyone here remember Ghost Recon 1 on xbox? Used to be able to do a nice L L R L R R L R R type thing where you were constantly changing direction as you ran. You could almost dodge the bullets and since grenades lagged up the game so much on xbl most games were played without them. Ah, I miss that game. The new ones in 3rd person just don't appeal so much to me. I liked the old tactical 6v6 1-3 shots and you die slower paced combat. When I just want to run around guns blazing thats what games like Halo are for.

[Makiaveli]

You forgot the weave. Anyone here remember Ghost Recon 1 on xbox? Used to be able to do a nice L L R L R R L R R type thing where you were constantly changing direction as you ran. You could almost dodge the bullets and since grenades lagged up the game so much on xbl most games were played without them. Ah, I miss that game. The new ones in 3rd person just don't appeal so much to me. I liked the old tactical 6v6 1-3 shots and you die slower paced combat. When I just want to run around guns blazing thats what games like Halo are for.

Halo with no shields. That gets interesting real quick.

[Craft Enzo]

you know, maybe the FPS wouldnt be half bad...